[et_pb_section fb_built=”1″ _builder_version=”4.22.1″ _module_preset=”default” background_image=”https:\/\/dzogchentoday.org\/wp-dzogtodaychen-content\/uploads\/2023\/09\/interview-philippe-cornu-2.jpg” custom_padding=”||177px|||” collapsed=”off” global_colors_info=”{}”][et_pb_row admin_label=”Ligne” _builder_version=”4.21.0″ _module_preset=”default” global_colors_info=”{}”][et_pb_column type=”4_4″ _builder_version=”4.19.0″ _module_preset=”default” global_colors_info=”{}”][et_pb_text _builder_version=”4.22.1″ _module_preset=”default” header_font=”Montserrat|700|||||||” header_text_align=”center” header_text_color=”#FFFFFF” header_text_shadow_style=”preset1″ global_colors_info=”{}”]<\/p>\n
[\/et_pb_text][et_pb_text _builder_version=”4.22.1″ _module_preset=”default” header_4_text_color=”#FFFFFF” min_height=”55.2px” custom_padding=”||0px|||” header_4_text_shadow_style=”preset1″ global_colors_info=”{}”]<\/p>\n
[\/et_pb_text][\/et_pb_column][\/et_pb_row][\/et_pb_section][et_pb_section fb_built=”1″ admin_label=”Feature 14″ _builder_version=”4.16″ background_color=”#ffffff” custom_padding=”2px||28px|||” locked=”off” collapsed=”off” global_colors_info=”{}”][et_pb_row column_structure=”1_2,1_2″ _builder_version=”4.16″ custom_padding=”||0px||false|false” border_width_bottom=”1px” border_color_bottom=”#d9c6a4″ global_colors_info=”{}”][et_pb_column type=”1_2″ module_class=”column1″ _builder_version=”4.16″ custom_padding=”|||” custom_padding_tablet=”||50px|” custom_padding_phone=”” custom_padding_last_edited=”on|tablet” global_colors_info=”{}” padding_tablet=”||50px|” padding_last_edited=”on|tablet” custom_padding__hover=”|||” padding_phone=”||50px|”][et_pb_blurb title=”@ET-DC@eyJkeW5hbWljIjp0cnVlLCJjb250ZW50IjoicG9zdF9hdXRob3IiLCJzZXR0aW5ncyI6eyJiZWZvcmUiOiJXcml0dGVuIGJ5ICAgIiwiYWZ0ZXIiOiIiLCJuYW1lX2Zvcm1hdCI6ImRpc3BsYXlfbmFtZSIsImxpbmsiOiJvbiIsImxpbmtfZGVzdGluYXRpb24iOiJhdXRob3JfYXJjaGl2ZSJ9fQ==@” image=”https:\/\/dzogchentoday.org\/wp-dzogtodaychen-content\/uploads\/2022\/11\/cropped-logoDzogTod-512.jpg” icon_placement=”left” image_icon_width=”33px” _builder_version=”4.22.1″ _dynamic_attributes=”title,content” header_font=”|700|||||||” header_font_size=”20px” custom_margin=”||-2px|||” header_font_size_tablet=”” header_font_size_phone=”18px” header_font_size_last_edited=”on|phone” icon_font_size=”33px” global_colors_info=”{}” icon_color__hover_enabled=”on|desktop” icon_color__hover=”#13204d”]@ET-DC@eyJkeW5hbWljIjp0cnVlLCJjb250ZW50IjoicG9zdF9hdXRob3JfYmlvIiwic2V0dGluZ3MiOnsiYmVmb3JlIjoiIiwiYWZ0ZXIiOiIifX0=@[\/et_pb_blurb][\/et_pb_column][et_pb_column type=”1_2″ module_class=”column2″ _builder_version=”4.16″ custom_padding=”|||” global_colors_info=”{}” custom_padding__hover=”|||”][et_pb_blurb title=”@ET-DC@eyJkeW5hbWljIjp0cnVlLCJjb250ZW50IjoicG9zdF9jYXRlZ29yaWVzIiwic2V0dGluZ3MiOnsiYmVmb3JlIjoiIiwiYWZ0ZXIiOiIiLCJsaW5rX3RvX3Rlcm1fcGFnZSI6Im9uIiwic2VwYXJhdG9yIjoiIHwgIiwiY2F0ZWdvcnlfdHlwZSI6ImNhdGVnb3J5In19@” use_icon=”on” font_icon=”||divi||400″ icon_color=”#e2e2e2″ icon_placement=”left” image_icon_width=”33px” _builder_version=”4.22.1″ _dynamic_attributes=”title” header_font=”|700|||||||” header_font_size=”20px” body_text_color=”#967b5d” custom_margin=”||0px|” custom_padding=”||26px|||” header_font_size_tablet=”” header_font_size_phone=”18px” header_font_size_last_edited=”on|phone” icon_font_size=”33px” locked=”off” global_colors_info=”{}” icon_color__hover=”#13204d” icon_color__hover_enabled=”on”]<\/p>\n
An interview with Philippe Cornu part 2, conducted by the Translation Committee’s junior translators Gregoire and Paul over a cafe gourmand.<\/p>\n
[\/et_pb_blurb][\/et_pb_column][\/et_pb_row][\/et_pb_section][et_pb_section fb_built=”1″ _builder_version=”4.17.4″ _module_preset=”default” custom_padding=”5px||0px|||” global_colors_info=”{}”][et_pb_row _builder_version=”4.21.0″ _module_preset=”default” min_height=”69px” custom_margin=”|auto|-55px|auto||” custom_padding=”0px|||||” global_colors_info=”{}”][et_pb_column type=”4_4″ _builder_version=”4.21.0″ _module_preset=”default” global_colors_info=”{}”][et_pb_text _builder_version=”4.21.0″ _module_preset=”default” global_colors_info=”{}”]<\/p>\n
<\/span><\/p>\n <\/span><\/p>\n [\/et_pb_text][et_pb_text quote_border_weight=”0px” quote_border_color=”rgba(0,0,0,0)” module_id=”bas-1″ _builder_version=”4.21.0″ text_font=”Montserrat||||||||” text_font_size=”18px” link_font=”|100|||on|||#000000|” link_text_color=”#000000″ quote_font=”Cormorant Garamond|700|||||||” quote_text_color=”#bf9e77″ quote_line_height=”1.3em” header_font=”|700|||||||” header_2_font=”|700|||||||” header_3_font=”Montserrat|700|||||||” header_3_text_color=”#000000″ header_4_letter_spacing=”12px” header_5_font=”|300|||||||” header_5_text_color=”#bfbfbf” header_5_letter_spacing=”12px” header_6_font=”Montserrat|700|||||||” header_6_letter_spacing=”6px” module_alignment=”center” quote_font_size_tablet=”” quote_font_size_phone=”” quote_font_size_last_edited=”on|desktop” locked=”off” global_colors_info=”{}”]<\/p>\n The young translators on the Dzogchen Today! translation committee asked questions about translation and the background knowledge needed to practice it. And Philippe Cornu, our senior translator, kindly took the time to answer them over lunch at La Libert\u00e9 restaurant. So this transcript may contain a few fork taps, for which we apologize\u2026 Dessert was the usual gourmet coffee, but it was Philippe\u2019s words that really got us talking.<\/strong><\/p>\n <\/strong><\/p>\n Here is the second and final part of the interview. The You can read the first part there.<\/a><\/strong><\/p>\n [\/et_pb_text][\/et_pb_column][\/et_pb_row][et_pb_row _builder_version=”4.16″ min_height=”2869.9px” custom_padding=”||0px|” global_colors_info=”{}”][et_pb_column type=”4_4″ _builder_version=”4.16″ custom_padding=”|||” global_colors_info=”{}” custom_padding__hover=”|||”][et_pb_text quote_border_weight=”0px” quote_border_color=”rgba(0,0,0,0)” module_id=”back-1″ _builder_version=”4.22.1″ text_font=”Montserrat||||||||” text_font_size=”18px” link_font=”|100|||on|||#000000|” link_text_color=”#000000″ quote_font=”Cormorant Garamond|700|||||||” quote_text_color=”#bf9e77″ quote_line_height=”1.3em” header_font=”|700|||||||” header_2_font=”|700|||||||” header_3_font=”Montserrat|700|||||||” header_3_text_color=”#000000″ header_4_letter_spacing=”12px” header_5_font=”|300|||||||” header_5_text_color=”#bfbfbf” header_5_letter_spacing=”12px” header_6_font=”Montserrat|700|||||||” header_6_letter_spacing=”6px” module_alignment=”center” custom_margin=”24px|||||” hover_enabled=”0″ quote_font_size_tablet=”” quote_font_size_phone=”” quote_font_size_last_edited=”on|desktop” locked=”off” global_colors_info=”{}” sticky_enabled=”0″]<\/p>\n GR\u00c9GOIRE<\/p>\n There are multiple cultural influences within any tradition, including that of Dzogchen, which of course affects the choice of translation… You’ve already given us examples of the links that have been forged in the past, particularly between Dzogchen, indigenous traditions and B\u00f6n in Tibet, or Shivaism and other traditions in Kashmir, not to mention ‘\u2019Persia\u2019’, and so on. The adaptation of vernacular cultural influences must have had an impact on the translation and writing of Dzogchen texts in Tibetan. In our translations into French and English today, there may well be other perceptible influences from modern Western culture, contemporary examples linked to our way of life…<\/p>\n PHILIPPE<\/p>\n That’s a possibility, but you have to choose them carefully, because today’s vocabulary is quite unstructured and often even words have lost some of their original meaning. Take the word “enthusiasm”, for example…<\/p>\n GR\u00c9GOIRE<\/p>\n …in theos<\/em>…<\/p>\n PHILIPPE<\/p>\n … it means “to take in God”… or “to be in God”…<\/p>\n PAUL<\/p>\n … it is self-consecration…<\/p>\n PHILIPPE<\/p>\n … it’s very strong, exactly…<\/p>\n DAMIEN (who was also there<\/em>)<\/p>\n …whereas we see enthusiasm as a sort of superficial excitement. There’s also “con-sideration”, which means, “with the stars”…<\/p>\n GR\u00c9GOIRE<\/p>\n Or “dis-aster”… Having lost the link with the stars…<\/p>\n PAUL<\/p>\n That’s why you have to take “disaster into consideration”, if I understand correctly.<\/p>\n (laughters<\/em>)<\/p>\n PHILIPPE<\/p>\n Yes, there are a lot of words that need to be given a deeper meaning.<\/p>\n GR\u00c9GOIRE<\/p>\n But we can’t just do etymological work either, because that wouldn’t give us what you were talking about the other day<\/a>; which is a more direct and immediate meaning, in today’s French.<\/p>\n PHILIPPE<\/p>\n No, but there is also a role of poetic re-education [1]<\/strong><\/a>, I would say, of expressive power. Because poetics is poiesis<\/em>, it’s creating through language.<\/p>\n PAUL<\/p>\n Paul Val\u00e9ry even talked about poietics<\/em>.<\/p>\n PHILIPPE<\/p>\n That’s right, so it’s really important to understand the impact of language, of the speech.<\/p>\n GR\u00c9GOIRE<\/p>\n So, to be a good translator, you have to be a great practitioner, a scholar and a poet – all three at the same time!<\/p>\n PAUL<\/p>\n Like Longchenpa [2]<\/strong><\/a>.<\/p>\n PHILIPPE<\/p>\n With Longchenpa, the poetic aspect is crucial. At some point, you let yourself be carried away by the text. If you really want a translation that really captures the spirit of Longchenpa, the poetic aspect is essential.<\/p>\n GR\u00c9GOIRE<\/p>\n So, to sum up, what would you like to pass on from your experience as a translator?<\/p>\n PHILIPPE<\/p>\n What I’d like to say is that I was completely taken by Longchenpa’s work. It was my first major translations. And it gripped me so much that it inhabited me, and that’s what enabled me to translate it: because when I look now at what I’ve done with the three texts of Natural Freedom of the Mind<\/em> (La Libert\u00e9 Naturelle de l\u2019Esprit<\/em><\/a> in French), I realize that I don’t know if I would still be able to do it now. But at that time, it was done. It’s a bit out of my personal control. And that’s the point: you really have to be in love with the text in order to be able to translate it properly.<\/p>\n PAUL<\/p>\n Once, when we were translating, you said: “ah yes, just remembering the words can remind you of the state, the experience.”<\/p>\n PHILIPPE<\/p>\n It’s mainly the practical terms.There are a few theoretical terms in Dzogchen that form the structural framework, but there are all the terms that describe states of mind, which are then very difficult to render, because they are terms of experience. The difficulty then is to know whether the reader, when he reads what we’ve translated about one of these terms, will simply grasp it mentally or will feel that it’s really an experience; that the term will inspire him and encourage him to practice, and that he will then understand what it means. There is always a transition between the textual nature of the text and its practical nature. So you have to encourage the reader, and that’s why the translation is so important. If the translation is ‘\u2019boring\u2019’ (laughs<\/em>) you’re bound to miss the point. Or if you make it too intellectual or too philosophical, that can also be a mistake. You must never forget that Dzogchen is always connected to direct experience, the experience of yogis.<\/p>\n GR\u00c9GOIRE<\/p>\n You also talked about the importance of transmission \u2014 the oral<\/em> transmission of the text, which is a whole subject in itself, to which we’ll certainly return one day… \u2014 and especially about the fact that this transmission is carried out by a master, who therefore suggests that you translate certain texts rather than others; texts on which he can teach and comment on, about which you can ask questions, seek clarification…<\/p>\n PAUL<\/p>\n For example, you told me in another interview<\/a> that it’s thanks to Ch\u00f6gyal Namkhai Norbu you had the courage to translate *Vajrasattva’s Heart Mirror<\/a>.* His way of teaching Dzogchen openly liberated you in a way. The same goes for the Oral Lineage of Shang Shung<\/em> (tib. zhang zhung snyan rgyud, “Shang shoung ny\u00e8n gyu”, which is the oldest Dzogchen b\u00f6npo cycle, which you translated for the teachings of Lop\u00f6n T\u00e8nzin Namdak<\/a>. This master helped you by clarifying many passages, as the vocabulary in this text is sometimes archaic and therefore forgotten. Dialogue with a master is therefore essential.<\/p>\n [\/et_pb_text][\/et_pb_column][\/et_pb_row][et_pb_row _builder_version=”4.17.4″ _module_preset=”default” custom_padding=”3px||4px|||” global_colors_info=”{}”][et_pb_column type=”4_4″ _builder_version=”4.17.4″ _module_preset=”default” global_colors_info=”{}”][et_pb_image src=”https:\/\/dzogchentoday.org\/wp-dzogtodaychen-content\/uploads\/2022\/09\/DSCF7823.jpg” alt=”dzogchentoday.a primordial place GR\u00c9GOIRE<\/p>\n So the fact that a teacher encourages you to translate certain texts, that you ask for clarification, etc., was that what you did at the beginning \u2014 or was it rather that you personally chose which texts you wanted to start translating?<\/p>\n PHILIPPE<\/p>\n I came across Guenther’s translations [3]<\/strong><\/a>. They left me with a taste of unfinished business because they were perhaps a little too intellectual and phenomenological, in the (overly) complex sense of the word. So I said to myself: “I’m going to see the original text”. And when I saw the text, it was so much clearer! I think it’s important not to be too intellectual when trying to translate Dzogchen.<\/p>\n GR\u00c9GOIRE<\/p>\n Perhaps that’s one of the biases in the approach that we tend to find in the French and the Germans?<\/p>\n PAUL<\/p>\n In fact, as far as I know, at the moment there is very little German Dzogchen translation at the moment: many of the main publications are translated from English. We would therefore like to see Tibetan-German Dzogchen translators. A new generation of translators must be trained, and they must have the intrepidity to translate directly from Tibetan into their mother tongue. German is the great language of the Western philosophical tradition (Kant, Hegel, Heidegger) and of the Friends of God<\/em> mysticism<\/a>, and it has great etymological resources that would allow it to play with the roots of words to translate profound experiences (think of the variations between Grunt<\/em>, abgrunt<\/em> and Ungrund<\/em> in Meister Eckhart and Jakob B\u00f6hme). There is therefore an immense potential for translating all the lexical differences in Dzogchen: ye gzhi<\/em>, kun gzhi<\/em>, etc.<\/p>\n GR\u00c9GOIRE<\/p>\n And on the English side, of course, much more is translated directly from Tibetan. There is also hegemony in terms of languages \u2014 that is the academic publications that go with them, the funding for research and translation work, and so on. But perhaps many English-speaking translators have a bias other than the mental-intellectual bias of Europeans from the old continent? I think you’ve already said that\u2026<\/p>\n PHILIPPE<\/p>\n With Americans, it seems to me that the approach is more one of feeling<\/em>, which is the particularity of English, and which is rather the opposite of what I was describing earlier. It’s also glossed: the gloss, i.e.<\/em> the commentary, is sometimes included directly in the translation [4]<\/strong><\/a>. There’s often a psychological dimension too. So these are all our cultural filters, as translators, in our respective cultures. We all have them and we have to be aware of them. Moreover, the dialogue between translators of different languages, with different cultural backgrounds, is enriching. It shows us that our points of reference influence the way we conceive the text and also the way it will be received by the audience. Is a Dzogchen text just a book, to be read once and put away in a library? Or are they texts to which we return to again and again to absorb their primordial meaning?<\/p>\n [\/et_pb_text][\/et_pb_column][\/et_pb_row][et_pb_row _builder_version=”4.21.0″ _module_preset=”default” global_colors_info=”{}”][et_pb_column type=”4_4″ _builder_version=”4.21.0″ _module_preset=”default” global_colors_info=”{}”][et_pb_divider color=”#FFD62F” divider_weight=”3px” _builder_version=”4.21.0″ _module_preset=”default” custom_margin=”||0px|||” global_colors_info=”{}”][\/et_pb_divider][et_pb_text module_id=”notes-down” _builder_version=”4.22.1″ _module_preset=”default” custom_padding=”1px||3px|||” global_colors_info=”{}”]<\/p>\n [1]\u00a0<\/span><\/span>Those who read the texts sometimes make them their bedside books, reading and rereading them, reciting or singing them, sometimes learning them by heart: so there is a certain responsibility to ensure that the meaning is correct, but also that it is beautiful and well said. BACK<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\nTranslation, poetics and direct experience of Dzogchen<\/span><\/span><\/h4>\n
\n\u00a9Mar\u00e9va Bernard” title_text=”dzogchentoday-philippe-cornu” align=”center” _builder_version=”4.22.1″ _module_preset=”default” module_alignment=”center” height=”388px” custom_padding=”20px|||||” box_shadow_style=”preset2″ global_colors_info=”{}”][\/et_pb_image][\/et_pb_column][\/et_pb_row][et_pb_row _builder_version=”4.17.4″ _module_preset=”default” custom_padding=”||0px|||” global_colors_info=”{}”][et_pb_column type=”4_4″ _builder_version=”4.17.4″ _module_preset=”default” global_colors_info=”{}”][et_pb_text quote_border_weight=”0px” quote_border_color=”rgba(0,0,0,0)” module_id=”back-top” _builder_version=”4.22.1″ text_font=”Montserrat||||||||” link_font=”|100|||on|||#000000|” link_text_color=”#000000″ quote_font=”Cormorant Garamond|700|||||||” quote_text_color=”#bf9e77″ quote_line_height=”1.3em” header_font=”|700|||||||” header_2_font=”|700|||||||” header_3_font=”|700|||||||” header_3_text_color=”#000000″ header_4_letter_spacing=”12px” header_5_font=”|300|||||||” header_5_text_color=”#bfbfbf” header_5_letter_spacing=”12px” header_6_font=”Montserrat|700|||||||” header_6_letter_spacing=”6px” module_alignment=”center” hover_enabled=”0″ quote_font_size_tablet=”” quote_font_size_phone=”” quote_font_size_last_edited=”on|desktop” locked=”off” global_colors_info=”{}” text_font_size=”18px” sticky_enabled=”0″]<\/p>\n